….going completely off-tangent for once and posting something which has TOTALLY nothing to do with animals, but has something to do with AnimalCare, especially in the area of applying for subsidies, making requests and communication.
Please see this link: http://www.englishclub.com/speaking/titles.htm
Important excerpts:
When you are writing to someone for the first time, use a formal address: Mr or Ms + the person’s last name if you know it. If you can’t find the last name, use a generic title such as Sir or Madam. The respondent may address you by your first name and sign off with their first name. In today’s business world, the following correspondence is usually more casual. If you write back a second time you can use the respondent’s letter as a guideline. If they address you by your first name and sign off with their first name, you can do the same. Make sure that you spell the recipient’s name correctly.
You should also make the effort to confirm the gender and proper title. If you really don’t know the name of a person and cannot find this information out you may write, “Dear Sir/Mdm”. You cannot possibly go wrong with that!
I think you know why I see a need to post this. Yes, we are humans and we live with certain cultural expectations and level of propriety without which communication becomes very unpleasant.
Looks like schools don’t teach this anymore these days. Now, that is truly sad.
Never EVER address a female by her surname without title, whether in writing or in speech. It is defeminizing and downright RUDE. Either address her using a formal address or use her first name.
For example, if a Chinese lady’s name is Wong Siew Mei, please address her as Ms Wong (or other appropriate and correct titles like Mdm Wong or Dr Wong) when communicating for the first time. If you are on friendly terms with her, you may address her as Siew Mei. Never EVER address her as “Wong”, please. It is very rude. You may continue addressing her as “Ms Wong” (or her appropriate title) if you feel more comfortable that way.
If you are writing to someone for the first time and you are not sure of his or her gender, write your salutation as “Dear Sir/Mdm”, not “Hi” or “Hello”.
Next, allow me to talk about those who are applying for our subsidy for the first time, especially those who do not know our procedures.
Here is the difference between how a polite person and those who are not so polite approach the matter:
The polite person will write thus: I would like to apply for a subsidy for my rescued animal, etc, etc. Could you please advise me on the proper procedure?
The not-so-polite person will write: I heard that your organisation gives subsidies for rescued animals. I am sending you the form and receipt. (I get this very often) And I will reply: No sir, that’s not how we work. Could you please write in with a photo of the animal and a write-up about what help is required?
The impolite person will just dump the form and receipt into my postbox and when I call to enquire, he or she will say: How am I supposed to know? This is my first time applying! (This really happened a few days ago)
If you don’t know, please find out or ask. Please don’t simply assume.
And if I may carry on, there is a distinct difference between “Please….?” and “Could you please….?”. Read the following and you will know what I mean:
1. Please send me the forms.
2. Could you please send me the forms?
3. I would truly appreciate it very much if you could please send me the forms.
The magical word here is “could”. Not “can”, but “could”.
How we address a person in the first encounter or communication makes a world of difference to the relationship. If we do so correctly and politely, it not only shows that we respect the person we are communicating with, it reflects on our upbringing and education.
Relationships and friendships are forged for the long term. Even if they are for the short term, the memory remains. So, let’s make them pleasant ones?
Thank you so much for letting me rant.
Comments
35 responses to “Allow me the rare indulgence of…”
Dear Miss Chan
I happened to read your blogs again….
Personally, It is fine if people not put a title dr. when addressing u.
people like u and me are doing good for the animals, not craving
for title and high respect and so forth.
some of the rescurers are not highly educated like u do. please forgive
them if they are rude in writing.
I believe u have high tolerance as a speaker of drama.
thank u.
Ivy.
Dear Ms Glum,
I believe you have either missed the point or chosen to interpret it to your advantage. What I understand from the post is the proper way to address a female is to use her title against her surname OR to use her first name. In my correspondence with Dr Chan, she always signs off as kahyein. In her Buddhist circle, she never uses the ‘Dr’.
What she is saying is that we should not call anyone by the surname, which is impolite (like calling me Goh) especially in writing. I agree with that. It does not take high education to know this. It is courtesy.
By the way, ‘Miss’ is for unmarried females. ‘Ms’ is for all females. I believe Dr Chan is not a ‘Miss Chan’.
Being polite makes us cultured humans, so I agree with the post!
– Steve
Dear Readers, I am in my sixties and I am sad that young people nowadays do not have much courtesy, especially in writing. They do not know the proper way to write a salutation or to end a letter or email. They do not even know the polite way to address someone in person and often comes across as being very rude without knowing it. I think this is a failure of the education system in our country. Way back when I was in school, being educated was not about getting good results, it was about being polite and courteous. Our teachers would punish us if we failed to address them politely. I agree with the contents highlighted in this post. I also think Ms I Glum has misunderstood the post.
I deal with the Japanese people and although they are a humble people, good manners matters very much to them. We must never address a Japanese person without the -San. ‘-San’ is like Mr, Mrs or Miss. Try calling a Jap by his surname without the -San and he will be very offended! Malaysians must learn some manners too. Otherwise, we become uncultured people!
dear i glum,
please shut your mouth. or rather, just stop typing. the world would be a more peaceful place.
thank you.
I glum (no salutation to you as you won’t appreciate it),
By way of your writing, I reckon that you are those type who loves to intimidate others. You have a hypocrite type of personality, and I’m not surprise if your daily routine includes :
1. Double park your car eventhough there are ample car parks nearby
2. Tell others how great you are but nobody appreciate your work
3. Tell jokes but nobody laughing
4. Jealous of others
5. Take things from others but never bother to inform
6. Take things from others but ‘forgotten’ to return
7. Always blame others for all your shortcomings
8. Overtake queue as if you are invisible
9. Never flush after done
10. Do wrong but never admit
11. Always late
Etc etc
I think you are a drama queen who just wants some attention.
Instead of intimidating Dr Chan, I suggest that you read and re-read carefully until you understand the meaning of respect, courtesy & being polite to one another.
woohoo! go connie!
and by the way i never knew Dr. Chan was a speaker of DRAMA, or that she had so many blogS to read. i had a really good laugh re-reading your comment there. HAHAHA!
Dear Ms Ivy,
I dont think Kah Yein is craving for people to call her Dr Chan. I have known Kah Yein for several years and I can testify that she definitely does not crave for people addressing her as Dr Chan. On many occasions, I have heard her requesting her friends who addressed her as Dr Chan to drop the formality and address her merely as Kah Yein. Such is her humility.
I believe you have misunderstood Kah Yein’s posting. Her intention is not to ask people to address her as Dr Chan as she doesnt believe in that salutation. She would be more than happy if people address her as Kah Yein.
She is just saying we should not address anyone by just the surname when writing for the first time – that is all.
Since we are all ranting here, may I also rant out one of my pet peeves? Many pupils and students often call their teacher, “Teacher!” And this is actually incredibly rude, but this was seldom ever corrected and this horrible habit is spreading all over at educational institutions that should know better! This happens when cultures get crossed because in Mandarin the kids are taught to say “Lao shi” literally meaning “teacher.” But when it’s said in English, it’s so wrong and the teachers themselves are not teaching the difference. The correct way to call your teacher is – for example “Mr. Lim,” or “Puan Siti” or “Ms. Wani” etc. Now you see why many Malaysians do not know how to address people correctly?
College students in Msia address their lecturers as “Sir” or “Miss”. I’ve corrected the “Miss” often enough, but the trouble is, many female lecturers tell their students to address them as “Miss”. Well, one can only do so much! Whatever it is, it is STILL better than addressing someone by his or her surname. “Dear Miss” is still a bit more respectful than “Dear Chan”!
I choose to call Dr. Chan as so…Because to me, she has studied and earned that title and so i would like to honor her hard work with that salutation. I would also like to credit good manners to proper upbringing by parents as well as the person’s own humility.
Those who have none…Manners…..Have some humility and learn some. Please.
I agree with Ms/Mr BL Wong. I had a very good headmistress in secondary school who would correct us each time we addressed any teacher incorrectly. She would say ‘Good morning, who?’ or ‘Thank you, who?’. She taught the whole school good manners and I am very, very thankful to her until today. I feel sorry that such teachers do not exist today and students no longer get to learn good manners. I feel even more sorry for those people do not even appreciate having others teach them good manners but instead choose to condemn them! Pity, pity.
To whom it may concern:
The woman who attacks me is someone typically …..
it is so interesting that u know me so much.
I really don’t understand that woman who seems to have so much
emotion and has so many evils said to a stranger!
I don’t need all that actions to live my life as i lead simple life, that
what u said about me do not apply.
sound complicated.
imagination is good…
加油.
I stick to my point: when doing rescued work of animals, there is no need to add a title Phd. sometimes, it is confusing if the person is doing rescue or promoting her academic do.
I don’t raise it for no reason, all the books written by Dr. Chan have a title and all those people must address her dr.atbthis blog.
tiring.
Dear Ms Ivy,
I understand you now. You do not like people addressing me as “Dr Chan” and you do not like the “PhD” that comes after my name. I cannot stop people from addressing me as “Dr Chan” if they choose to, because humans created this title for someone who has studied and earned that degree. If you know me personally, you will know I never introduce myself as “Dr Chan”, but only as “kahyein”. As for the PhD on the cover of my books, it was put there on the advice of my publisher and proof-readers as that is the norm with many writers, whether it is M.Sc, M.D., DBA or even B.Sc. My books were not written to promote myself as a “rescuer” (a label which I have never tagged on myself) or as an academic. They are merely personal stories that I share with people who are interested to read.
But you have clearly misunderstood my post (about calling people by their surnames) or you chose to misunderstand it, and now I understand why.
Thank you for clarifying.
– kahyein
oh gosh, can’t you understand the words SHUT UP?!
I glum,
You seems to have an inferiority complex.
Concur.
Ms Glum, It looks like you have a personal issue with Dr Chan because you don’t like her having a title and a degree and getting recognised for it. That is actually YOUR problem and not hers. Think about that. Why do you resent her title so much?
Dear Ms Ivy,
Most of us who follow this blog are very supportive of KahYein’s work. For me, it wasn’t her PhD title that attracted me to her work. It was her compassion and her selfless service to the animals. Her actions speak a lot.
Go through the hundreds of comments made by people in this blog. How many people have actually addressed her as Dr Chan? I have never addressed her as Dr Chan, even though rightfully I should out of respect. I have always addressed her as Kah Yein.
regards,
James
Ms Glum, Take a trip to the bookstore and take a look at the books on sale. So many writers put their degrees after their names. It is a common practice in publication. Why are you taking it out so badly on Kah Yein? No wonder you are so ‘glum’. You do not know how to feel happy for others. I agree with JJ, it is YOUR problem, not hers!
Anthony Hopkins’ life philosophy: It is none of my business what people say of me or think of me. I am what I am and I do what I do. I expect nothing and accept everything. And it makes life so much easier. Dr Chan, carry on with whatever you are doing and being who you are. We support you! Ms Glum can remain glum if she likes! You don’t owe her ANY explanation at all.
Those who think I have issue with anyone is not true. I don’t know Dr Chan and I only hear and read her blogs. neither do I follow her drama talks.
In Maaysa, there are many degrees which can be sold. As such, I have never feel any need to pay attention to title like this.
As to her work for animals, many who help out daily in the shelters or be somewhere unknown to any of u, these are the ones
who do the hard work. Because they are not out there in the limelight, no one recognize their hard work.
Dr. Chan, it is not an attack on your education personally. I just need to clarify here that there is a difference
between a good research work done at good universities, and those who work at the shopping mall, have someone
comes to advise and guide, then a degree is granted.
Having come across cases like this, and also seeing many of the young talents who work and toil day in and out in those
places of good universities, I know what I am talking about.
Some of u who write to attack me, reflect very well on their own level of thinking.
This is a blog on animal issue. All those who toil daily in the sun are the great people.
Dr. Chan, u have done many good service in the past going out to the places to rescue
dogs. I respect your commitment and hard work.
I hope u continue with those hard work for the good of all strays in this country.
Lastly, it is not for me to dislike your PhD, I just think many people here are too formal when
addressing u.
If u like animals, they don’t care if u have nothing, agreed?
Thank u so much.
ivy.
you’re wasting your time, i glum. why do you want to prove your point so much? is it even necessary? i think it’s a load of nonsense, what you keep typing, beating around the bush and wasting your time.
gosh. you should really get some therapy. and some english lessons.
and i, also being a reader of this blog personally do not think Dr. Chan craves for all that glamour and recognition and enjoys being addressed as “Dr.”, i think you’re just jealous and insecure, and you need to tear other people down for your own sick satisfaction. well, let me tell you, people like you will never go far in life, or achieve whatever heights or goals you so crave because of this kind of idiotic behaviour.
i think it is you who craves for recognition and titles, although you claim that you lead a simple life. everyone has been so polite and tolerant, trying to be helpful and understanding, except myself, and i do not take back any of my words towards you, but i will personally have you know that if you do not shut up and go away, i will not tire in asking you to do so.
lastly, perhaps you should take a look at yourself before making accusations and claims about others, as this only reflects your mindset and your insecurities.
and if you do not like anyone here, or AnimalCare, or the work that they do, then KINDLY stop reading this blog and go and do some work of your own which you may be proud of someday in future. each to his or her own.
perhaps you should also get yourself some much-needed education if you want a PhD or the like, and stop making these uneducated complaints here.
Respect is a 2-way street. When you show respect, you gain respect. That is the gist of Dr Chan’s original post on how to address people respectfully. She has even pointed people to a website that taught good manners. Wonderful tip and opportunity for anyone to learn something.
In the final analysis, it is not about how well educated or titled anyone is, but how well we learn from our daily interactions with others that count. This is how we learn to be smarter and more productive. With such a seemingly endless barrage of comments not supporting your point… have you learned anything from this encounter?
As Alvin Toffler puts it: “The illiterate of the 21st century will not be the one who can not read and write, but the one who can not learn, unlearn, and relearn.”
Of course some of the comments may not have shown you any respect, but then again… respect is a 2-way street.
I am an advocate of “banyak cakap banyak salah” so I shall end here with a simple question to you, Dear Ms Ivy Glum, and also directed at those who reacted emotionally with disrespectful comments directed at Ms Ivy Glum… “have you learned anything from this encounter?”
Dear Mr/Ms Billy,
thank you. your comment is noted.
Dear Readers,
Thank you everyone who have contributed to this thread but I believe enough has been written about this topic and it is now time to move on to more important and pressing matters which are directly relevant to our mission of helping street animals and their rescuers. As Mr Billy has rightly pointed out, let us all LEARN something from this encounter and if I may add, be a better person as a result of it.
Thank you once again and have a great weekend!
– kahyein
Ivy,
It appears that you have an issue with people addressing Kah Yein as Dr Chan. And were you suggesting that Dr Chan bought her PhD? If indeed you are saying this,you owe Kah Yein an apology because I know for sure her PhD was obtained through sheer hard work.
If you have followed the AnimalCare blog since it first started some 3 to 4 years ago, you would have remembered that Kah Yein never mentioned that she is a PhD holder in the blog in the initial few years. She merely introduced herself as Chan Kah Yein. It was through the persuasion of some friends later that she agreed to introduce herself as Dr Chan Kah Yein in the blog. We felt that the PhD title would lend some credence, credibility and authority to what she writes. I remember Kah Yein was initially reluctant but after much persuasion she relented.
Many people including myself have lots of respect for what she has done for the animals. Through her blog, books and talks, she has raised the awareness of neutering/spaying to a higher level in Malaysia. She has also taught people to have more compassion to the street animals. I have learned many things from her.
Nobody is undermining the work and effort of rescuers who toiled in the hot sun to rescue animals. Kah Yein has never undermined the work of other rescuers like yourself. Instead she worked hard to get the funds from the public to help rescuers like you. She also toiled under the hot sun selling tshirts to generate funds to help other animal rescuers.
Ivy, Kah Yein has never forced you or anyone to address her as Dr Chan. in fact she will be happier if people address as Kah Yein or Ms Chan. Please do not make an issue out of nothing.
Thank you.
Ginny
Here is your whole problem, Ms Glum. You don’t know Dr Chan, you have probably never met her in person, you have never attended or heard any of her talks and you think you have the right to judge her?? Similarly, some of the readers of this blog have also never met you and do not know who you are, and they too have judged you. How do you feel now??? Whether people address her as Dr Chan or Ms Chan or Kah Yein (which she prefers and always uses), it is not within her control. If you have never met her, how do you know what she prefers? Do you know she always tells people to drop the “Dr” but people just want to give her that due respect? Dr Chan started myanimalcare to provide monetary help for all these rescuers who ‘toil daily in the sun’. It is not easy for her to raise all this money to help them. She has to write to tell people about these rescuers, talk to people, manage the funds, she also has to manage rude people who are demanding. That is work too. You say a lot of people feed strays and nobody recognizes their work. Well, Dr Chan does and she writes about them so that people like you and me will know about them and help them. Isn’t this work too? Look at her latest feature on Mdm Hoo. If Dr Chan doesn’t write about Mdm Hoo, none of us will know about her work. If Dr Chan doesn’t raise the money, Mdm Hoo will not get the help she needs. None of us will know about Meiji or Pak Din also. Who will help them? I think you have a jealousy problem here. You write: If you like animals, they don’t care if you have nothing. Yes, they don’t care if you have a name or not, or whatever people call you. They just want to be fed and taken care of and Dr Chan works hard to provide this for many rescuers. So, what is your problem, Ms Glum? In the first place, her post is about not calling a female “Glum” but calling her “Ms Glum” or “Ivy”. It is about good manners. You missed the whole point and used it to vent your frustration just because you are jealous of her degree!!
I agree with Connie. I Glum has inferiority complex and a jealousy problem. People like her will never be happy because as long as someone does better than them, they will see the worst in people and find faults to condemn them. That is why there are so many unhappy people in this world. They make themselves unhappy.
Dear Poison Ivy Glum,
Respect is to be earned and not to be asked. Dr.Chan has earned it. Btw, it’s called DHAMMA talk, not drama talk. I bet if you have been to her Dhamma talk, you wouldn’t be raising this as a big issue in the first place.
I work in Human Resource in an international corporation and I receive emails and letters from young people applying for jobs all the time. Some of these letters are very poorly written and very rude. It is not just a problem in our country but is worldwide. I agree that good manners is the hallmark of a civilized society and if nobody values good manners anymore, it will be the downfall of human civilization. I think this link is useful and will forward it to all the young people I know. Thank you.
Wow, so many rantings and lambasting each other in the previous comments. Though, I have no comments on those.
I’d only like to thank Kah Yein for this posting.
When I read this blog yesterday, my first thought- “Oh good, Kah Yein has written an excellent posting on the importance of having manners and using the proper civilised way to address someone.”
To me, having manners is vital in forging goodwill between humankind. I’ve been slighted in many occasions simply because the other party addressed me as “ah moi”, “eh”, “hello?”,etc. and I usually take longer to response in those situations. And I find myself being less cooperative or reponsive.
When people addressed me properly- “Ms. C,” “Hello, (my name)”, miss, cik, puan, madam I’d feel better because I’m being acknowledged properly as a person.
Good manners, civility and common courtesy are vital. If we don’t practise this, what will the world become?
Ms I-Glum, I don’t think Dr Chan has time to entertain your insecurities. She is too busy raising funds and arranging help for rescuers like Meiji and Mdm Hoo, so please take your insecurity and inferiority problems elsewhere. I suggest you go out and do something useful for someone else and not sit around feeling sorry for yourself because you don’t have a PhD and venting your poison at people who worked hard for it. I have a degree and work in the corporate world. I earn my living doing an office job. I give money to charity and it is my hard-earned money. To say only those who toil in the sun deserves recognition is very narrow-minded. You need to get out of your shell and start appreciating people for all that they do in their individual ways.